The nanny state comes to Northborough. The Super Wise Board knows best what kids should see. Hey, if Mom and Dad don't want the kids to see belly dancing, they can go somewhere else to eat.
It is time for government....even conservative government, not just liberal government....to mind its own business. Live and let live.
Sheesh.

OMG! Better not let your children go to a beach. And rule out any dancing or music. And movies and TV too. We must protect all people at all costs from seeing any part of the female body other than head and hands! Maybe a town-wide dress code next? What a load of hypocritical garbage. Now what? Deny them a liquor license for no valid reason and wait for the restaurant to fail? I am now officially ashamed to be living in this town.

Time for Hutchins to go. Obviously he has social issues. Like Molly said ever been to the beach? This displays the same ignorance people show against Hooters which has absolutely no nudity. It is a disgrace they even have to ask if they can have belly dancing. If there is no current rule specifically against it, then just do it. "Land of the free" is gone. Now it's just "Land of the free stuff".

I travel around the US and many parts of the world where people of all ages love belly dancing, and recall that it was (or maybe still is) a feature at Bush Gardens. Come on, this is just being prudish. Its not 'nanny state' stuff.

I had a Greek restaurant in my neighborhood at one time, and they would have belly dancing on Fridays.

If you didn't want to see it, you didn't eat there during that specific 2 hour period. Everyone wears clothes. Lighten up, Northboro.

I have to say one more thing, aside from the fact that it is fine to post belly dancing hours to protect our youth (and attract customers), and if we have a Polynesian restaurant that wants some hulu dancing they should do the same. And if we have bagpipers in town lets be sure they wear underwear in case the wind blows. But here is my point:

I worry whenever someone sez 'I love my Jewish friends, but....'or 'I love black people, but...', or as in this recent election, 'I love women, but.' We all remember that evangelical clown of an attorney general who said something like 'I like art, but I am going to drape the bosoms of Lady Justice in our entrance to the Justice Department.' Yup, and the right-wing governor of Maine who said a year or two ago 'I love workers, but I am tearing out a panel portraying their history in our Dept of Commerce.' Such are the self-righteous justifications which I think a majority of Americans just voted against. As true conservatives would say, 'if you don't like something don't buy it, but don't tell others they can't enjoy it. I'm sure that Mr. Hutchins, art lover, would not take his family to the Worcester Museum of Art or the wonderful museums in Boston That's his choice, but whether or not we can see a jiggling belly or two should be ours. Yup, and I wish the new Turkish restaurant well. The food is great and I predict that when they get their bar and a good Friday night show it will be a welcome success.

Let’s keep things in perspective. This wasn’t some nefarious attempt by the Selectman to stifle artistic expression. In order to have live entertainment in MA, the _state_ requires that the local licensing authority, in this case the BOS, issue an entertainment license.. The Selectman approved the request, and asked that Zem post the hours when dancing would occur. While one member initially expressed some concern, at least one other specifically stated he was adamantly against “legislating morality”. Don’t worry, I doubt they will be burning books next. 8*)

Interesting that only those of us critical of the board have no problem with having the posts under our names. And it doesn't matter to me if it was one member or all. This type of thinking should not exist at any level of government.

Having participated in the hearing Monday night, I feel confident that I can assure people that there was no intent on the board’s part to sensor anyone. Zem Han asked that we amend their license to allow belly dancing. We did so. We also asked that they let people know when the shows were occurring so that those who might not want to attend, for whatever reason, would be forewarned.

Jeff Amberson

Zem Han was required by law to obtain the board's approval to amend their license. They obtained the board's approval...and it's "time for Hutchins to go"? Why? Because I insisted that they advertise that they have a belly dancer, as well as posting the specific times of the performance so that patrons would have the option of not viewing it? Outrageous.

Has the board seen what teenagers wear to school? I've seen more inappropriate outfits at Algonquin!

Did they forget... Northborough recreation has belly dancing lessons for teens and adults...and if I'm not mistaken... they were once held at the town hall! Better stop teaching women to dance that way... they might look inappropriate!

yes, outrageous. Selectman Hutchins simply inquired about the type of entertainment. He seems unbiased and willing to support towns people over town hall. We are fortunate to have him as a northborough selectman

Let's bring this back into perspective again. The STATE law that requires approval for live entertainment is there to protect our town -- nobody wants a strip joint to open in Northborough center. So there has to be a hearing to get permission.

One parent suggested that they would not want their son exposed to that, and that they felt it was inappropriate. "Live and let live" works both ways. I think it's his right to not be surprised by dancing he considers inappropriate.

Personally, I don't agree that it's inappropriate. It's a cultural tradition, and I've always thought that kids should be raised to experience different cultural traditions whenever possible -- so they realize there's a world outside their little town.

If they didn't allow it, then this comment would have an entirely different tone. But since they did allow it, let's let Selectman Hutchins raise his family the way he wants, and enjoy some cultural entertainment, with or without ours.

"Why?" you ask. Because comments about belly dancing like "I don't want kids exposed to this" "inappropiately dressd" "I don't know if I would" I don't think it's appropriate" are so far from the middle of the road it's a car crash. Posting the times of the events is perfect, it will let us know when to come, not stay away.The "I don't want" suggests to me if it could have been prevented entirely it would have been. Skirts don't have to be below the knee and some people espouse burqa's, but that's not Northboro's culture, we are more modern than that and our town leaders should cater to that.

I felt that posting times on the restaurant's website prior to each weekend (dancing takes place on Sat/Sun only), and with the host/ess taking reservations (Selectman Rand also suggested posting on the doorway, for walk-ins), would enable folks to know when/when not to make reservations, if parents are concerned about kids viewing the dancing. I do feel that posting this info (which is part of the approval) should be done in a positive tone, since this adds to the cultural experience at Zem Han. Otherwise, it implies that the dancing is a negative thing.

Just a question. Do other venues in Nboro which offer entertainment, often of a very adult quality, need to post times to protect the innocent from some of the very rough language and sentiments I have heard in them? 'Warning, rock singers may say things which may offend you' or 'folks singers are often liberal and may offend the conservatives among you.' I would offer that if there is not an ordinance that applies to all equally there is a very disturbing thing going on here, particularly since belly dancing in so widespread, popular and, frankly (except for the heavy duty prudes or maybe folks who don't like the cultures from which it arises) common. I agree with Bob about our culture. Incidentally, I have been going to Nboro restaurants for almost 30 years and the number of times I have seen kids in them after around 7:30 at night could be counted on one hand. In fact, most of our eateries close down just as most around the world are waking up. I am increasingly inclined to think this whole thing is nonsense. I'd stay in Iowa if I wanted it (though rural Iowa clubs can be pretty raw).

I will try one more time here. As I stated in the meeting, I believe we, as a board, should not attempt to legislate morality. It is up to individual parents as to what they believe is appropriate, or not appropriate, for their kids to see. In my mind, it’s no different than deciding what movie or TV show you would let your kid watch. Personally, I would be a lot more concerned about the lyrics in some of today’s music then I ever would about belly dancing. The bottom line is that it is an individual choice, that should be left to the individual. In order to placate those that might be uncomfortable, it was suggested by a board member that the hours be posted. Since the management of the Zem Han had no objections, and they most likely would be publicizing it anyway, I did not object either.

Hi Jeff. I applaud your principles but have serious reservations about a requirement which strikes me as oddly discriminatory. Belly dancing is taught at the Senior Center, perhaps in a school club, and is widely accepted as a legitimate form of fun cultural entertainment. Like Karaoke, or hula dancing or bagpiping. I have seen a lot of it, even, as I have said, in a big family venue with hundreds of kids (and my leering dad) crowded around the stage. If the dancing is immoral or obscene, body parts are improperly exposed or whatever, then someone should call the police on those grounds, not on the grounds that there is no signage INTENDED UNIQUELY TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST BELLY DANCING per se. Knowing that the owner of the restaurant is doing all he can to get community acceptance and even visibility (and is hoping to get a bar license) I cannot imagine he would oppose whatever you want to do. So I say, either get rid of this dumb requirement or apply it all venues in Northborough that offer entertainment that any good citizen could find offensive. And then waste police time enforcing it. LOL. I know the problem. You guys have belly dancing confused with lap dancing. Aha.

Main Street is right on the money. So, lets say one goes to CJ's or the Celtic and a folk or rock singer does something really anti-war that seems offensively un-American. Or just the opposite, he or she is singing in praise of gays or lesbians. Pick your offense folks. Well here in the sophisticated heart of Metro West we have a town really worried about entertainers offending people, perhaps even at midnight after the kids have long gone to bed. So, if I am a right winger I call my tea party friends and they can all come over and hoot and holler and get ready for a town meeting. Lets get those commies warned about. If I am a leftie I can find a bunch of friends to call.

Sooo, does the town have procedures for clearing entertainers before they perform and for what offended citizens should do? Obviously Mr. Hutchins looked at a video to stereotype all belly dancers and the board acted in part on that and the utterly silly fears of a couple of people who are worried about what might happen if they have their little kids in a restaurant at night.. What about controversial folk singers? Should they sign some kind of oath? Do we have a process for going to town meeting and ask for their entertainment license to be pulled and renegotiated. Should we call the police if signage is a little off? Poooleeze pull this all back. Get town government out of things like this. There are plenty of other things to worry about.

Northborough better change the the G rating on Disney's Aladdin
As Princess Jasmine wears the same outfit a belly dancer wears, http://disney-clipart.com/Aladdin/jasmine/Disney-Princess-Jasmine2.jpg
requiring one business of the many that offer entertainment is 100% discriminatory.
Sure the owners/management agreed to the postings, If anyone made a stink about it we're all sure you would say no to the permit

To the person who asks if I watch belly dancing at the Senior Center I say I did not know about it until I started to check around when I read about this nonsense. If I can figure out when it is I may go up there with my camera and take some 'X' rated pics which I will badger Charlene (who will break all her circulation and click records) to post. :-) Beyond that I will not comment on my prurient interests lest I risk a morality enforcing art loving Selectman who seems scared bananas that some kid will see a belly button at my door. Oh, just saw the magnificent Denzel Washington in Flight. Couldn't have that flick in Nboro, what with all that booze, coke and other things the kids around here don't have a clue about. Let 'em see belly dancing, and then there are reefers, and then, well...the town is lost.

What a bunch of over-reaction here. Not by the board, but towards it. The place asked for an change to their license, the board approved the change, and asked that the hours of the shows be posted. Woopty doo! Where is the infringement on liberty here? Oh yeah, the BOS is holding up their liquor license so they can go out of business right? WRONG, the board approved the license 2 months ago, and it is in the hands of the state "Alcoholic Beverages Control Commission". I can't say that the board gets everything right, any group seldom does, but in this case I see a bunch crying over milk that never even spilled.

Sex, sex, sex, sex, sex. This MS, is what it is all about. Our town fathers and mothers are badgered into being afraid of it I fear by one of the members who has apparently managed to persuade them that belly dancing is the work of the devil. It is widely known that Mr H is a Mormon, a very conservative religion, that he takes very seriously. Well guess what folks, Mormons love belly dancing in the home of the church. A little research turned up that there are at least 50 belly dancing troupes in Salt Lake City, and a big annual festival. And get this:
“Just as prophet Joseph Smith wove together scraps of folklore, history, and doctrine to make a uniquely American religion,” writes Mona Awad, “so locals have redefined the Middle Eastern art form to express the cultural, religious, and sexual tensions that pervade life here." Hey, though the Mormon church frowns on “moves that are suggestive of sexual behavior" even Brigham Young U has a belly dancing club. So, a religion with a history of manifestly anti-black and anti-women beliefs that are changing for the better seems to have a more enlightened view of belly dancing. I'd suggest Mr. Hutchins get hip and bring his kids to see belly dancers. Maybe first at the senior center and next at the restaurant in question. And, that he swallow a little hubris and persuade our town moms and dads to rescind their action. Hey, I'll bet that even Mitt likes belly dancing.

All kidding aside, I have to agree I don’t see the need to have to "warn" people about live entertainment. And I must agree on the many points about why single out this place.
If they wish to pass a bi-law that all establishments offering live entertainment post warning signs outside the establishment informing patrons of said entertainment that’s fine, but to require one single establishment to do this, that’s targeting .

Its even more surprising the number of conversations this topic has started, not the fact that we’ll have a cultural themed restraint in town, but everyone pointing out that only one business in town has to “warn/inform” patrons. I cant help but wonder what type of stipulations if any for warning was placed on Aamazing on Rt9?

LOL, the Aamzing place. I was always afraid that if I went there someone would see my car..... :-) That's how brave (and deprived) I am. I went to a Rotary event in Wboro this morning and a bunch of us got talking about this. The word I heard most often after snickers of disbelief from a bunch of pretty straight arrow moderate people was "discrimination." I'll look into that. My goal has always been to help clean up Nboro and celebrate its beauties, not have to spend time on idiocies like this.

Really Ron? Making fun of a guy's religion? That tells me a lot more about you than it ever will about him.

Not making fun at all, but showing where his church apparently is on the issue of belly dancing. If a Catholic were trying to impact the schools on sex ed or another issue I would point out what I know about the position of the church, partly, if necessary, as a means of supporting my own position. I don't care what you think about me, but the equity and values in this particular situation. Mr Hutchins, who I do not know, is doubtless a fine feller, but perhaps not even he knows what is going on in SLC. I think we should here. By the way, let me add, that for two years I directed a large technology research program in Salt Lake City, at the U of Utah, and spent a lot of time there. About half the people I worked with were practicing Mormons. I admired most of them deeply for their values, commitment to education and healthcare, and work ethic. Knowing I liked a martini they would take me to a club where I could get one -- they often paid. They recommended hotels in a part of the city where I could go to a brew pub. We talked for hours about their religion and their efforts to build a tolerant society in Salt Lake City, a wonderful place I could live in, that was far more livable than in many Mormon communities in the state, and elsewhere. I want those values here. I never saw an entertainment warning sign there. The only thing my friends asked was that I consider contributing my family history to their fantastic geneology archive so I and my relatives could be saved.

Ron, why would you introduce religion into this? Aaron made a comment that he would be uncomfortable taking his kids to the show. That is his prerogative. He never brought up his personal religious beliefs. You did. If I had made the same comments, would you have made a point of me being raised in the Episcopal church? I agree with Mr Clements, this discussion has taken a turn for the worse.

Jeff, I have been aware of the importance of religion in the life of this family for many years and I therefore reacted strongly to the appropriateness comments Mr. H made.

I don't want kids exposed to this," said Hutchins. "I don't think it's appropriate. "Again, my comments are strictly based on what I saw on that website. I thought that dancer was inappropriately dressed."

What does 'inappropriately dressed' mean if it doesn't reflect moral values or religious perspective that can be challenged? One path can go to censorship, and putting the restaurant through those paces could come close.

I thought Mr. Hutchins comments were not appropriate to a public policy decision. Were you leading the charge on a moral issue I might look at your religion and see if there is any guidance.

Jeff, none of this would be discussed if the board had either given that restaurant a no conditions license to entertain, or decided that all restaurants had to announce entertainment hours, but that's all. It was based on the fact that a leading member doesn't want young people to see some skin. I don't know what ages are being talked about but you know as well as I do that young kids are not going into a bar-restaurant by themselves, nor should they be permitted there in any case. Otherwise, leave it to the parents to learn about what is on offer. Its a small town and people will. McDonalds doesn't need to warn that some believe beef can kill.

Sorry Jeff, I ran out of space. Please send me the url of the belly dancer site the board took seriously so I can explore it. One can prove anything on the web. I assume the board looked at the site?

Did the board do any independent research on belly dancing?

What, as your board understands it, is the meaning of the word 'inappropriate?' or did you let Mr. Hutchins determine that?

One other thought in terms of religion. I would not drill down far into one's denominational beliefs and dogmas, but if I knew you were a practicing Christian I might look at that a tad.

I have read a lot about Mormonism and lived in a part of the west where they are hated. I learned to get over that but I am not persuaded they are Christians, and so I look at them as a 'church' and know that what happens in Salt Lake often doesn't reach out to stakes, which are sometimes more conservative.

Finally, I see myself as a civil libertarian, and Libertarian with a capital L. I do not want morality police in my town. I do not want town boards telling kids what they cannot read when the literature is mainstream, and I do not want a board of selectmen telling us what 'inappropriate' dress is and thereby apply rules to an establishment selectively. I look forward to answers and not a diversion around my raising religion as a cover.

I know we agree on many of these positions. Buy the devil is in policy details, and here I think our board has failed miserably. I hope I'm wrong. Thanks.

Ron, the best (and easiest) way for you to get a flavor regarding what happened at the meeting would be to watch it. The meetings are rerun periodically on cable. This will be my last post on the subject as I am not going to try and rehash it here. As stated, multiple times, there was no effort or intent on the boards part to censor anyone.

Thanks Jeff. Will try to watch, but going off to Northern California for long trip soon (which means silence here, blessedly I'm sure). I appreciate being able to comment and express my views and have always appreciated your efforts to make a better town and act responsively when I have concerns. I cannot imagine the full board would want to censor anyone, but sometimes the results are latent and unfair if the full implications are not thought through. My hope is that the next time something like this comes up the results are different. Good day for fishing, so go out and enjoy some. And have a great Thanksgiving.

Listen to Aaron Hutchins talk about the issue at 11:30 a.m. on Friday on the Phantom Gourmet radio show. You can listen online at http://www.newstalk969.com/

Shame they woudlnt take my call when Aaron was live, he sure down played the issue of how, only Zemhan has the requirement to "warn" patrons.

I do believe this deceased equine has taken on far too much physical abuse.

As a side note.....and I kid you not.....Starting next week, per their Facebook page, the Celtic Tavern has a Wet T-Shirt contest.......wonder if they are required to put a sign up to notify folks in advance.........Just Sayin'